Catherine de Wenden: Managing migration while respecting human rights

In the run-up to Global Policy Forum held in Yaroslavl on September 7-8 mottoed 'The Modern State in the Age of Social Diversity' Research Director of the Centre for International Studies and Research Catherine de Wenden gave an exclusive interview to the personal correspondent of ‘RIA News’ in Paris Vladimir Dobrovolsky.

- This spring a wave of migrations from Magrib flooded Europe. There were hot discussions on the issue of immigrants from Tunisia, coming to Italy. Now passions are smoothed down but these processes haven’t stopped yet. What do you think of the situation today? How shall Europe respond to migrants?

- Policy of managing migration shall be implemented with the highest respect of human rights. Now we are witnessing great declining in action of European countries, such as the European Union, where far right mindset is mounting. Migration policy is in certain manner being hinged following the upsurge of far right mindset in Europe. And that causes human rights denial in border control practice. The best part of migration policy is being implemented in view of public opinion and efficiency.

That is why first of all we need proper migration policy rather than policy implemented for satisfaction of public opinion.

Secondly migration flows are running in Europe and will keep running. We shall keep our citizens informed and assured that Europe can get the largest migration continent over the world. Even though people treat it negatively, this is a fact. We shall educate people in this issue to shape positive attitude to it as regard immigrants’ benefit to labor market and demography.

Flexibility is the source of wealth. Wholly closed state is dead economically, demographically and culturally. The majority of countries today are dealing with migration. They are starting point, transit or host country. European countries shall look forward towards mobility rather than back.

Thirdly ideas of avoiding migration developed by conservative economists, in particular in Oxford, are false. European labor market is widely segmented. That’s why there is constant dependence on migration flows.

However it not obligatory leads to prosperity of the countries which people are leaving. Thus we shall think of migration flows management on international level. We need to strengthen the role of south countries, associations, and international organizations instead of advocating present situation of ‘sword-law’, when a host country entirely manages migration policy. The most part of host countries come out against the idea of world management over migration flows.

- How could such management be arranged?

- It is solution based on multiway approach that will let determine needs of trade and World Trade Organization, environmental protection ratio, and healthcare. We can establish world organization that will manage migration flows and will not let a host country decide on migration policy alone. Such policy shall be agreed with migration source countries, non-governmental organizations, and associations. Particularly it will let treat immigrants’ rights more seriously. In the twenty first century the right to move freely shall be regard as one of the human rights.

This project was started by Kofi Annan in 2006. But taking into account that the majority of host countries, such as the USA and European countries, stand against it, the project is not developed. In my opinion this is the project of future. If just host countries take decisions on migration policy, there will be a lot of breaches, including illegal migration. Strengthening of control does not keep immigrant away, it contributes to illegal moving immigrants and their death. Significant funds are spent by migration-source countries for such illegal travels. It is great losses for any country.

- Do you agree with the statement that migration to European countries weakens the countries, being the source of migration?

- It depends on a country. There are countries fully dependent of migration, such as some states of Magrib and Africa to the south of Sahara. That does not weaken other countries and it is even considered to be the source of their openness. Small countries with insignificant elite are the exception. They can get weaker because of migration. Others, being migration source or host countries, win.

- However it’s evident that for instance the Tunisians came to France are young, more able to work persons. Is it real that Tunisia will lose all of them?

- It’s not. Tunisia will have them since they have 30% of unemployment, and 50% of the young are under 25. They have a lot of young people. There are less of them in France and in Russia. I don’t think there will be a shortage of man power in Tunisia. Not just lesser qualified persons are coming out. A great number of them got good secondary education.

- Shall we be concerned with significant increasing of migration flows due to current state of things in Libya and Syria?

- There will be migration, but insignificant. I don’t think the revolution will cause great increasing of migrants since the major part of population intends to use achievements of revolution. Groups that used dictatorship favors are very small and familial. It’s they who will depart. Those who wanted to leave the country in any case and currently took an advantage of weakening border control because of civil war would also depart. But this won’t cause great migration flows. The difference between Libya, Syria and Tunisia is that most part of Libya and Syria citizens can apply for political asylum since they were put to dictatorship torture. No doubts there will be a great wave of refugees from Syria.

- Where can they go?

- Libyans came to neighbor countries, especially to Tunisia. They have more than 280 thousand of refugees. I’ve been in Tunisia in June. There are a lot of Libyans, in hotels. They are not poor. They’re waiting for change of situation to go back to Libya.

Those who worked in Libya and lost their job due to the revolution came back to Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, and Egypt. Oil industry in Libya attracted a lot of migrants.

As regards Syria I think there will be major migration to Turkey, to Lebanon, because of geographical neighborhood. West Europe will not be one of the first countries who have to host flows of refugees from Syria. Very few French speaking persons could come to France. That is several thousands, in particular, Christians. France for about 20 years had been having mandate for Syria.

- What could be the consequences of the program carried out in emigrants districts in the Great Britain?

- The disturbances resemble those to take place in France in 2005. They weren’t connected with Islam, they had social nature. In the Great Britain such disturbances also had social nature: people demanded access to labor market and rights equality. Those strikers are immigrants’ children who have no job. They claim to prove their rights. It’s not any kind of Islamic extremism. That is economical situation, sense of discrimination.

These events could provoke rejections in France where immigrants are associated with disturbances, illegal trade, etc. But this image won’t be in any case connected with radical Islamism.

- In the Great Britain we witnessed clashes between immigrants from different regions. How could we cope with them?

- In French suburbs we witness clans war, ethnic clash – the Vietnamese and the Chinese on one side and African and Magrib natives on the other side. To avoid it we shall have mixed districts. We often witness ethnic ghetto, where natives from one region live. This leads to clans war. Responsibility for it shall be assumed by policy of social resettlement that gets together people depending on their national origin. Neighbors are treated as the representatives of different culture, different religion, in other words, enemies. Territory sharing takes place at those territories.

The Europeans shall take up their residence in such districts. Those districts shall be diluted.

- But security should be ensured for it. Don’t you think so?

- Several social categories shall live in districts. We will have tension if some districts are populated with the poor and people with problems. These people are unemployed and feel themselves discriminated. Drug traffic also causes creating clans. This is a problem of social policy that hasn’t thought of community life in many districts.

- What migration policy shall be implemented in France?

- Firstly it’s improper to think policy of emigration control will help to reduce entrance to the country. Quite opposite it will lead to the growth of illegal migration. Secondly we cannot limit movement of people. We have to think of the ways of managing it since there is no opportunity to prohibit it. That is the issue of world development in the twenty first century. We shall maintain such changes instead of trying to defer them.

We need man power, whether qualified or not. We cannot forbid coming workers to have families. Besides there are people whom we do not need, but we cannot forbid them to enter the country. Refugees are among them. Other kinds of migration that contribute to wealth of Europe are student and tourist migration, moving of retirees to a new place of residence, etc.

- What do you expect of Yaroslavl Forum?

- I believe it will be like Davos Form just in the East where the issues will be discussed in another outlook. Academicians, policy experts and entrepreneurs will get together here. It will let us understand view of globalization not from the center of Europe but from Russia. Issues considering by me, migration and demographical problems, are the burning issues in Russia, which cause controversy of society.

- What ideas will you present at the Forum?

- I think Russia can enable developing idea of migration processes management globally and become the example avoided by the USA and European countries. It can involve migration source countries in managing migration flows. If Russia starts this process, it will become a perfect example for major countries accepting migration flows.

Author: ‘RIA News’, 31.08.2011 

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